Bernard Joyce and Pat Stokes

Episode: Bernard Joyce and Pat Stokes from the Irish Traveller Movement
Bernard and Pat share their experiences growing up as proud Travellers, the discrimination they faced, how things are changing but still have a long way to go. They discuss opportunities for Travellers, including the apprenticeship programme and the importance of education in realising your full potential, but also how employers can do more to engage with Travellers in the workplace. For more information about ITM, visit https://itmtrav.ie/ phone 01 679 6577 or email director@itmtrav.ie

Open Mic is a new podcast presented by the Open Doors Initiative which explores the challenges and opportunities of the working world from the perspectives of marginalised communities. The podcast takes the form of short interview segments with individuals who will share their lived experiences and insights.

Guest Host
Introducing Hogai asefi Wardak. Born in Kabul Afghanistan in 2001, the youngest of her family, with 4 sisters and 2 brothers. A family where she could see her older sisters not getting what they wanted in their lives, not reaching their wishes and goals, because her father had never allowed or permitted, and never had an open mind for women to engage, work and participate in community, at that time in their country. 

In 2016, she graduated from high school and was enrolled in Kabul University. She started working with Zan TV, which is a specialized tv network for women. She started to host programmes dealing with Women’s empowerment, Women and sports and various social programmes. 

She also established an educational community for children, to help women and youngsters to get jobs, by joining POOHA NGO and worked with NATO. She’s still working with Zan TV on screen.

Open Doors Initiative

• ODI’s key mission is to enable equitable access to employment for marginalised people
• We create pathways to work through training, education, employment and entrepreneurship.
• Collaborative network of over 125 partner organisations
• Together we carry out training, work experience, mentoring, research and reduce barriers for people who are marginalised
•  We helped nearly 74,000 people on pathways to work in five years

Visit https://opendoorsinitiative.ie for more information and follow us on social media including Instagram, LinkedIn and YouTube

Transcript

Hello everyone welcome to Open Mic podcast presented by the Open Doors Initiative which explores the challenge and opportunities of the Working World from the perspectives of marginalised communities the podcast will take the form of short interview segments with individuals who will share their life experiences and insights my name is Hogai asefi Wardak hosting the Open Mic podcast the podcast will be available from the Open Doors website and from different podcast streaming providers it will be promoted online through social media and our member companies and supporting partners today in this episode we have two special guests uh Bernard Joyce and Pat Stokes Irish Traveller Movement welcome to both welcome Pat welcome Bernard thank how are you yeah thank thanks so much we're absolutely delighted to be here um and it's our first time on this podcast so um this is your first time in the podcast yeah really welcome yeah how was the experience um so far so good yeah yeah you've been very kind and you know and uh um and it's great you know just think fabulous building you're in and can see some amazing incredible work as well great how are you but a bit nervous now but looking forward to get this done to be honest great so welcome thanks joining us yeah I'll start Bernard from you tell me a bit about yourself about the family where you from and how is the journey so far oh it's just long it's like how long do you have but um but maybe I’ll start in some you know some some some areas um I was born in Dublin nice I'm the youngest of four boys um I was brought up pretty much in the 80s um and I suppose I have a very strong um proud heritage culture and sense of belonging to my to my community um but I've also encountered really high um hostility prejudice um discrimination and for other words racism that um that probably at the time I wouldn't have um been aware of so yeah it was really kind of like it was a it was a just a tough time because I was brought up in Dublin and I was brought up in a time where um Travellers weren't welcomed and and some and it's very evident today as well um but I have to say I um you know I I um left school with no qualifications um and somehow I did manage to go back to uh further education yeah and I graduated from NUI Maynooth and social and um Youth and Community Development um so it's felt very privileged really to have gone on and done that um and I know that education is a really important aspect in our lives um but it's also very important in terms of employment and I know that we're going to discuss that a little bit today um so I'm living in Kells County Meath for a long time um and I'm also a dad of um six kids and the uh second or girls three girls and three boys wow this nice three girls three boys and um really I really feeling quite proud as well cause uh our second daughter has uh just done her leaving cert and she'll be gone to Carlow uh college so I think you know just in terms of times and changes um and repurposing I think we are um you know we see there is uh change and positive change but unfortunately there still you know still challenges out there so we're still we still see there that's that can be a struggle got it but about you yeah I'm living in Longford here since about 2005 grew up in England before that so married I have six kids as well ah both in the same stage how it's possible both in the same state six kids like have you ever discussed about this never we share ideas share ideas I’m a bit older than Pat so I share you know notes but I'm sure at this stage expert but you know Pat looks so young for the six kids was the reason got married young so six boys as well so it's a all so yeah I've started up um working with the Longford primary healthcare project here about four year ago done it on a 12mth course two course and um a job opened up there then um two year ago so I was working there part time and joined the board of the ITM with Bernard here last year and the position for the apprenticeship um opened up so went for the interview and I'm in here now since March so we enjoying it now so far yeah that's good so I'm going to ask you Bernard that have you seen any change in attitudes toward hiring Travellers over the past few years or change in public perception well for the current for the length of time in work like I've been in the sector um you know 30 years um and the figures and stats and I know your audience who saying like stats and numbers and figures um but they they they are actually important because it it can show from I from the 90s right up to the present day that the figures in terms of Traveller unemployment remain just very similar in terms of 82% so 82% um you know is quite a crisis point because you have an economy where there's nearly seeing a zero employment you get to a certain level like two three probably three 3% but when you break that down and you start looking at the stats and people you know the human stories behind it um they start to show that for Travellers they you know like include myself and Pat and you know um and for our children for our community we have strong expectations and that when you're work working it gives you a sense of purpose it gives you a sense of you know getting up in the morning it gives you a sense of um you know in terms of um as suppose in terms of like you um you're you're now part of something um and you have this kind of you goal and I think that's you know it's a level of I think dignity you know um and self-worth um so for the community they're constantly they're all they're crying out for employment it's not that Travellers are sitting back and you know and and not wanting to work they're going out they're looking for employment they're looking for opportunities and somehow as soon as you mention or so soon as people become aware that you are a Irish Traveller your chances are just knocked back with immediate effect you just you know you just especially in small towns where everybody knows people say well how do you know you’re Travellers yeah you're in a small town you live in their generations and and people know the site they know the name like Stokes is well established in in Longford Joyces are well established name um for many different areas but also in the Traveller community as well and McDonaghs so people resonate and know that um and I think what we want to try and do is we just want to change that we want to say that that Travellers were always working yeah we never depended on the state we were striving economically we were striving as entrepreneurs we're probably some of the you know most entrepreneur people in the world we're nomadic we travel because it was the very essence of who we were and what we did and what we achieved um we did recycling when it was frowned upon when people said you shouldn't do that that's not that's it nearly illegal you near to be arrested yeah and today it's like the world are talking about reusable um you know energy efficiency um so we were doing that for decades and generations um we did we work we traded in horses we traded in you know labour uh we worked in rural Ireland um you know and we were just we we created work when there wasn't I mean you know like in the past we were people were described as part to know in terms of like tinsmiths um and this is before industrialization and plastics um and people relied on Irish Travellers yeah in terms of labour in terms of skills and also were you know in terms of talent musicians we have that you know we have so many talented storytellers musicians artists across Ireland and they're you know they're just you know in terms of like people who look at Irish music you look at the Furies yeah um who are Irish Travellers they look at the um Pecker Dunne it's fantastic um Christy Moore got some his songs from Irish Travellers so musicians will tell you that they're just incredibly grateful to Irish Travellers for both their talent music and for their um their songs and so the like so we've contributed massively and significantly to the whole of society but I'm just not sure sure like it doesn't show that sense of appreciation or understanding and I suppose that's the sad reality in society that we're just never accepted for who we are who we are as a people and more so people wanted to acceptance to fit into the norm and you know and to assimilate because they never they never seen or they never seen us or appreciate who we are as a people yeah got it but uh have you ever faced any barrier or problem in the way that you are some of the issues that we've been seeing uh since we started this with Travellers are on apprenticeships already is they don't tell their employers that they are Travellers for the second time that they're not known to be honest they're on a job there um for people starting up a new apprenticeship there's grants there that we're offering as well for the employer as well to take them on and there we have some people there that doesn't feel comfortable to even mention that to their employer in case it affects their employment as well with them so I think things just have to change with that as well it's it's bad that people can't go into work or went an apprenticeship and admit that your Traveller or tell us you know yeah uh Bernard do you think think how the business can help uh community to make them more receptive to employing Travellers in the future yeah like I think for businesses you have to start with like you who who is the entrepreneurs who are the businesses and and the vast majority of people are probably Irish settled people um so it's very important that people get to understand  who Irish Travellers are um and they also should liaison with Irish Traveller Movement the national apprenticeship program um and reach out to us um and we're really more we'd be delighted this is say that we' be absolutely delighted for any business who are listening in to contact  Pat myself um or the coordinator of the uh National Employment Enterprise um and employment and Andrew Chapel um so what you can do is um maybe one may maybe contact us to um check our website um itmtrav.ie just in terms of updated information and who Irish Travellers are and also um um in terms of the program the other side is that um we are working obviously with government in terms of an employment strategy and seeing how that can transpire and materialize but there should be kind of proactive measures or positive measures and some businesses have taken a pledge yeah and I think it's really worthwhile looking at this because it just means in terms of and Pat would know this but um that you know that it should be seen that where Travellers are employed or people from other minority groups um it creates a kind of diversity in the workplace and it creates an opportunity to um for people to work but also a little bit reflective of what society should be what how society is um so where there's opportunities um for smaller businesses they should really be looking to support Traveller employment um at a very local level and and really what I'm talking about is like if you're in Mayo or you're in um small towns of Ballina that these are for Travellers need to be supported in the community yeah not in terms of support you know and in terms of a number of positions probably in Dublin but supported in the community so they can get up in the morning and they can they can walk to work and walk back and be part of it um but there has to be kind of change in that because that's not trans that's not really translating and we're not seeing that so um and that's very similar in terms of maybe like larger companies they you know they have kind of social  conscious policy social policy um and so the probably do need to look at targeted measures in terms of particular groups um and you can see that in terms of like um employment in terms of um you know gender quotas now I'm not proposing you'd have gender you'd have quotas in terms of Traveller employment um but I would be proposing that um that they should um put in measures just to ensure that their workforce and that if Travellers are applying yeah um they don't deliberately exclude them from the workforce and I think more times than not Travellers might even get an interview um and I know I um there was a young person without mentioning their name um but they did they did do the leaving cert and they had done a lot of a lot of training in terms of leadership participation um volunteered but they gave their CV out of every single business job got it and he never got a response they did a three consecutive times not once twice three times and it's kind of sad reality because then there was that person just felt yeah like do people really care you know and they can see their they can see other classmates and others taking up part-time work for college and opportunities and that's symptomatic that's what I mean that's kind of symptomatic um and and then people would say Travellers don't want to work Travellers don't want to be employed and then when when they when they're knocking in doors and they're not they're like banging down doors it's just not it's not forthcoming yeah and all we're saying is just give people a chance give them an opportunity give the you know if they work hard give them an opportunity um because I think in the workplace that I work with settled people and Pat does as well yeah and in this find uh it breaks down barriers it actually breaks down what I'm saying is when you work and you're in an environment it breaks down barriers and it breaks down perceived view and prejudice and I think you know um it's a really important place to be in got it yeah and in this point you know Bernard I want to ask the Pat that uh do you have any advice for Travellers who would like in advance uh like in future education do you have any advice for them yeah with this day and age they're like more Travellers should be staying in into third level education and stuff like that you know um I just come to the end of my L7 and Community Development with NUIG so I'd recommend it anyone to try and do it and when you have that there behind your back and you're going then applying for jobs and interviews and stuff you know they have to take it start taking it serious and stuff like that you know so yep yeah got it uh Bernard as a last question because there is a lack of time you know where it was a nice chat as a last question I will ask you what experiences have Travellers had going through the different programmes just tell me about your experience yeah yeah so um I just want to say look I think I'm I'm Pat started with us and I'm absolutely thrilled to Pat’s with the apprenticeship program and I just want to this highlight that there are still bursaries available to Travellers if they're listening in on terms of the bursary yeah um there it's it's a really positive initiative and the reason why we're taking this initiative up is because um we want to see positive action taken yeah so true Department um of higher education the national Traveller apprenticeship program which is a pilot and it comes to the end of the year we're hoping to see that in 2024 but it's the first time we were able to see the Traveller take up yeah and apprenticeship program which specific tailored supports where Travellers are now employed working with Travellers alongside um a bursary that's available to help people with tools travel and cost and I think that's just incredible um and you know and with immediate effect we're starting to see that ripple effect slowly yeah so it's just the question you asked earlier just in terms of like what you're saying about businesses but it's also what we can do and I just want to say that we would love to get employers just employers aboard across any sector um in terms of apprenticeship um and then do doing that it just really you know we want to see Travellers in carpentry um electricians plumbers yeah um you know even working in terms of the public sector um even in terms of like sound or podcast like there's so many massive opportunities and for the community it um we you know we just want to really harness that and support that so I just want to say that um um and please contact us right so please contact us please yes contact contact us through the ITM our number is 01679 6577 um if not you can uh contact by email uh my my email address is director@itmtrav.ie uh we actually want to hear from you and I think that's part of the reason why we're doing this podcast we just want to get the message out there and we want collaboration we want support and we want to be working in partnership with businesses in the communities and I'm sure Bernard those that they are listening to us they took already the number and contact him for and they will contact you yeah yeah thanks a million Bernard and Pat for joining us it was a nice chat and conversation for both thanks a million yeah thank you very much for having us thanks a million everyone for listening as Bernard said please follow us Open Doors on social media Twitter and LinkedIn thanks a million see you we hope you found the series helpful please follow us online at Open Doors work on Instagram LinkedIn and Twitter thanks a million