Employers for Change: Common Misconceptions about Disability in the Workplace

Employers for Change is an Open Doors Initiative programme dedicated to helping businesses of all sizes navigate the world of disability, inclusion and confidence. Through engaging conversations with experts, we tackle common misconceptions and dive deep into the latest technology, policy and best practices that can transform your company's culture.

In this episode, Mohamed speaks to Bobbie Hickey from Mr. Price to discuss the most common misconceptions about employing people with disabilities and what can be done to address these.

Bobbie Hickey is the Equality Diversity Inclusion People officer for Mr Price Branded Bargains. This is an area that Bobbie is extremely passionate about as she is a  proud blind person, and so has plenty of lived experience when is comes to discrimination and barriers in the workplace. In many ways, Bobbie has been very lucky, this combined with her desire to make change means that she is determined to spread awareness and educate others on all things D&I related, both in and out of the workplace. 

Employers for Change is a programme of the Open Doors Initiative, funded by the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth. The service empowers employers with all the information and advice needed to hire, employ, manage and retain staff with disabilities.

Contact Employers for Change at info@employersforchange.ie or check our website for more information 

Transcript

Speaker 1 (Mo)

Intro

Welcome to the Employers for Change podcast. My name is Muhammad Sahid Camara. Employers for Change is an Open Doors initiative program dedicated to helping businesses of all sizes navigate the world of disability inclusion and confidence. Through engaging conversations with experts, dynamic organisations, and inspiring individuals, we will tackle common misconceptions, explore reasonable accommodation, and dive deep into the latest technology, policy, and best practices that can transform your company's culture.

Today, I'm joined by Bobbie Hickey from Mr Price to discuss common misconceptions about employing people with disabilities and what can be done to address and include individuals with disabilities in the workplace. 

Speaker 2 (Bobbie)

Hi everyone, my name is Bobbie Hickey, and I am the Equality, Diversity, Inclusion People Officer working for Mr Price in Ireland. I am brand new to the role, but not brand new to D& I, so I was actually born legally blind, so D& I is something that I live in my everyday personal life, but also I'm lucky enough to have a job that I really, really care about, so I live, eat and breathe it in my corporate life as well.

So, I'm delighted to be here, really excited to talk about some misconceptions, of which there are many. Um, I'm really excited to get into it.  

Speaker 1 (Mo)

And let's kick the ball rolling. Of course, you mentioned there are many, many misconceptions. And in this 21st century, disinformation has led to a lot of misconceptions. But can you take us through some misconceptions people with disabilities encounter? regarding the employment phase. 

Speaker 2 (Bobbie)

So I think before we get into the misconceptions, I think we should talk about some of the barriers that they face as well before even having to deal with the misconceptions. Um, now these barriers might arise because of misconceptions and then vice versa as well, but definitely a barrier that I have come across as well is a lack of awareness and a lack of education, um, which often, kind of shows itself in, a lot of fear, fear to do the wrong thing.

So they just do nothing. And by they, I mean employers. So when a person with a disability is looking for a job, a lot of employers will get nervous because maybe they've never dealt with an autistic person before. Maybe they've never had a blind person before, or maybe their office isn't wheelchair accessible.

So they just don't want to do the wrong thing. They don't want to come across as rude. So in order to avoid that happening, they do nothing, of course. As a person with a disability, I know doing nothing often comes across the wrong way. Um, but that's definitely a barrier before before any misconceptions even take place.

And then if you get past that point, a misconception is I think a lot of employers fear that when they hire someone with a disability, they're hiring them just to have them there so that the company can look good in terms of maybe they're not actually going to be able to fulfil a task that is actually benefiting to the company.

Maybe the reasonable accommodations that that person needs are going to outweigh the benefit that they will be to the actual company. So, for example, myself, like I said, I'm legally blind, so I use a screen reader. I also have a guide dog, so I sometimes take a little bit longer to do things, A, because I'm absolutely completely IT illiterate, but also my screen reader just isn't as fast.

Sometimes, and then also there are times where my guide dog, I might have a vet appointment or maybe she needs to be walked, you know, during the day as opposed to in the evening after work in the winter months. So those are all reasonable accommodations, but what a lot of employers are afraid of and what some of them don't realize is that just because you need to give someone those reasonable accommodations, that doesn't mean they're not able to do their job.

And there's a lot that can be done. For someone that often doesn't cost any money and indeed if it does cost money there are so many grants that companies can take advantage of for assistive technologies such as like jaws or zoom text or anything like that or a specific desk that could be a benefit to a wheelchair user.

There are a lot of grants that are there for a reason and they will go if no one takes advantage of them so that's just a few of them. 

Speaker 1 (Mo)

What are some of the impacts that people with disabilities do face? Due to this misconception in the workplace. Can you just go into deeply? What are some of these? So our audience can properly understand the impact of these employment opportunities being missed by people with disabilities in Ireland.

Speaker 2 (Bobbie)

Yeah. So I want to say as well before I go any further, is that it's not that the employers or the people in question are doing anything wrong. It's. It's simply just a lack of awareness and a lack of education. It's not their fault that they might never have come in contact with a blind person before or maybe they've never met someone with a disability, um, or perhaps maybe they've never met someone with a disability who is open about their disability.

Disabilities are very common, but not everyone is comfortable speaking about it. So it's not that they're doing anything wrong. It's not their fault. They don't have an education or an awareness around it. Unfortunately, in Ireland, the rate of unemployment for people with disabilities is huge, and I think that speaks volumes to just the lack of awareness.

And again, it comes down to fear, you know, there's a lot of fear surrounding it, a lot of people don't want to offend, so they do nothing. Or sometimes they, maybe they've had a bad experience and they're just afraid to go back, and they're nervous of putting resources into something that maybe, is it, are they going to see benefit?

Is someone who is blind going to be able to do the job the same as someone who is fully sighted? You never know until you try, but a lot of people are nervous to try. 

Speaker 1 (Mo)

You're right there, like, Ireland is rate least in terms of employment within the EU, so that's not a good statistic for Ireland when it comes to employment and other aspects of disability issues.

But, um, like, educating the employers is a very important crucial element because this has to do deal with the awareness, you're talking about there. But, um, like you earlier mentioned, it is not the fault of the employers not knowing about some of these things. So as individuals with disabilities, how do we go about like educating employers or what can be done in educating or the realities of educating employers in order for us to be able to debunk these misconceptions? 

Speaker 2 (Bobbie)

So, I think there are two different ways that I could answer the question. So, the first one is, and I'm a person with a disability and, you know, we're recording this in July, so it is currently Disability Pride Month, and I am extremely proud of my disability. It's a really big part of who I am. It's an integral part of who I am.

Um, I haven't always been like this. There was time in my life where I was extremely ashamed of my disability. Um, but thankfully I've come a long way since then. Everyone goes on their own journey and I am at the stage where I'm extremely proud of it. So I can say that for myself as a person with a disability, you need to be brave.

You need to be brave every day. You need to be outspoken, whether that's verbally or online or, you know, however way you communicate. As a person with a disability, I always try and have open conversations with it. If I am having a conversation with someone and I can gauge that they have questions, I bring it up.

I try and bring up, you know, my disability. I know that I have a guide dog, so I know a lot of people would often say to me, Oh, is she your guide dog or are you walking her for the blind person? Um, and I'll be like, no, no, like I'm the blind person. I'm like, oh my God, you walk so fast. I didn't realize that you were, you were the blind person because you walk so fast and that's a really like, I really appreciate people being open in that situation because then it allows me to break down some, some misconceptions that aren't in relation to employment, but maybe that person I'm speaking to is an employer.

And maybe because I'm speaking to an employer in the dog park about some misconceptions about people with guide dogs, maybe that employer then is going to go into their workplace the next day and have an open mind and be less afraid because they've had a really comprehensive and normal person conversation with a blind person.

So I, as a person with a disability, always try to be upfront about it. I would talk to the wall, so I will just speak to anyone and anyone about it. The second part to that is, educating employers from Mr. Price's point of view; we have a lot of partnerships. We have the National Learning Network, we have Chime, and we have AsIAm, um, all three of which we're extremely proud of and we have a longstanding relationship with each of them. And we have gained so much incredible talent through each of those. Um, and of course, yourselves, Employers for Change we just had an amazing job fair, um, the other day in the LinkedIn offices. And the amount of people. The amount of candidates that we met on that day a few days ago with PhDs, with years of experience, and they're just being turned away.

They're being made feel unvalid. And it's, it's again, it comes back to fear. So as, an employer trying to educate other employers. It's about us being brave and us getting out there, talking about our own experiences, not being afraid to say, here's Jack, he's a person in a wheelchair and he is doing an absolutely amazing job at managing X, Y, and Z.

You know, it's about being really proud, um, and speaking out about it. Because if you're a company who has someone, um, with a disability and obviously with their consent, Talk about it, you know, we don't want to toot our own horn all the time and we don't need to be bragging about ourselves because of course, like, you know, we can always improve on what we're doing, but equally representation is key.

So I think if you look at the companies that are really talking about what they're doing, even in terms of, like, if we're trying to figure out, okay, what's the best way to celebrate Black History Month, for example, we're going to look up what other companies have done for Black History Month. So it's about putting yourself out there, being part of the conversation as an individual and as a business.

Not being afraid, you know, yeah, you might make a fool of yourself. You might say the wrong thing, but at least you've said something. And at least if you do say the wrong thing, it allows the opportunity for an open conversation where you can correct someone, someone can correct you, and everyone can learn something.

Speaker 1 (Mo)

I myself, I'm a person with a disability. So if you're a disabled listening out there, you should make yourself visible because that is only the time people will notice that you are around and will be able to provide the necessary reasonable accommodation that you require within that vicinity.

So like raising awareness is playing a crucial role in the, the inclusive world today. How has, has this been within Mr. Price? Because Mr. Price we know is, is the, is, is a leading business when it comes to inclusive workplace. So please take us through what, what are some of the steps or the things Mr. Price has been doing that has led to this wonderful milestone you guys have achieved. 

Speaker 2 (Bobbie)

Thank you very much. Um, so first of all, we've been working on it for years. So we're, we're comfortable with where we are at the moment, but we're not done. And I think it's important to note that this is a journey that will never be over.

Unfortunately, there's no, there's no final destination in your DNI journey. One of the beauties of working in this field is that there's always something new and it's always evolving, but certainly where we are at the moment is we have an open conversation about everything. There is no stupid questions, there is no irrelevant topic. When we meet with our ERGs and our staff and stuff like that, nothing is off-bounds. Um, we try and encourage really educational and simple conversations because even if someone has a really good understanding about autism, they might still have what they consider a really basic question, but actually, more often than not, they're not the only one with the question in the room. So, as I've mentioned before, we champion bravery, we champion openness, and really, a massive step that we've taken to foster this inclusive atmosphere is being open, um, and not being afraid to take anything else on. And if we are a little bit nervous, we'll say to the person, Okay, we've never done this before.

Like, even in terms of my employment, I've been with Mr. Price now for three months. And in my onboarding process, they came to me and they said, right, we've never done this before. Have you? And I said, well, I've never worked for a retailer before. Okay, grand, so now we're both at the beginning; we're both brand new.

Um, how can we help you? And here's how you can help us. So it's right from the start. Being open with everything. Now that takes time and it takes a long time to build up those relationships with your employees. So if you're at the beginning, don't be discouraged. And it's all about kind of 1 or 2 people putting in the time, learning about topics, getting educated, getting in touch with the organisations of which there are so many in Ireland.

There are organisations that deal with specific disabilities and then there are like yourselves who have a really wide umbrella of resources that you can get in touch with. I'm sure I don't need to plug all the resources that employers for change have, but there's so many different toolkits and everything like that that are available.

And if you are an employer who is slightly embarrassed about needing to ask silly questions or what you consider a silly question, no one's going to know if you look up the inclusive language toolkits, you know what I mean? Like no one's going to look at your history. So, you can do that in your own time.

It's all about not being afraid, putting your own ego and your own kind of ideologies aside of yourself and going, What does that mean? And do I know anyone that might have it? And just ask the questions. You know, that's a really big step is being open about it. 

Speaker 1 (Mo)

In Ireland, because of the misconception and non-recognition of people with disabilities, most times people with disabilities find themselves isolated in communities.

And within these communities, they just have small-scale businesses that are there, that are open up to, to employ people of different abilities. But yet some of these small businesses have this mythical concept about people with disabilities being less productive and People with disabilities cannot be relied on when you just have six people working within a company or a business.

So, how do we debunk this mythical concept from these small businesses? 

Speaker 2 (Bobbie)

I mean, it's, it's definitely, it's definitely not true. Let me do my part in debunking it. Um, I think as someone with a disability, I can say that when I wake up in the morning, I'm already five steps behind. I have a lot of privilege in my life.

I'm, I'm really lucky. So I'm aware of my privilege, but in many ways, my sight loss leaves me a few steps behind everyone else. So I spend a lot of time playing catch up; everyone suffers with imposter syndrome, but I think as a person with disability, it's like imposter syndrome, like, on steroids.

It's insane. So, it's, while it's not true that we're, we're not productive because, in fact, we are so productive because we're trying the whole time to show you that we are worth it, that we're worth a few more reasonable accommodations, that we're worth doing the paperwork to apply for the grant, which, oh my God, it's so time-consuming, but it's worth doing it for us because we are productive.

I think this leads back to the point I made earlier about the people with disabilities being brave, being outspoken, and not, like, it's something to be proud of. It's a massive part of who you are. If you have a nut allergy, you're not going to show up to a dinner party and eat a brownie and not tell everyone that you have a nut allergy in case that brownie is riddled with nuts or whatever.

Do you know what I mean? You're not going to do that to yourself because you could end up having an allergic reaction, which, you know, depending on your situation, it could be dire. So you won't do that to yourself. So why as a person with a disability, should we turn up to work and not say it? Now, obviously, You know, uh, self-guided disclosure is encouraged.

It's really good when the person comes forward themselves and says it. But that should be, that's all about the environment. So it leads back to the environment, and again, having open conversations. So, it's about being brave. It's about thinking of your disability when you're bringing it up in conversation.

It's the same concept as an allergy. You simply would not put yourself in that situation if you had a dietary requirement. So why are you trying to put yourself in that situation as a person with a disability? And the more we speak about it, the more we can show the small businesses or, or large businesses, or not even any business, just a person in your life, your random neighbour who is amazed.

You know, when I'm walking down the street and my neighbours go, Oh, fair play. I'm like fair play for. For what? You know what I mean? I'm just going for a walk. It happens in all walks of life. Um, and no one means anything by it, but it just leads back to us being brave again. 

Speaker 1 (Mo)

Yeah. Yeah. I get it. Because if, if you look at the issue of disability, people, people tend to forget that being disabled is so challenging that living the life as a disabled person, comes with a lot of resilience and we just need that opportunity to take up these challenges.

We wish for these affordable risks that we want to take. We just need the opportunity, but sometimes people just, you know, because of these misconceptions, the medical ideology of being disabled. And another thing I see in Ireland is that there are lots of Disabled people's organisations, and it cover the different categories of people with disabilities rather than having one umbrella that covers the entire aspect of disability.

So this has made it impossible for people, like, to rely on different organisations to specifically advocate on general issues of disability. So what can these DPOs do in order to collaborate with businesses in addressing these misconceptions and improve the employment status for people with disabilities in Ireland?

Speaker 2 (Bobbie)

Well, I think the, the different organizations that deal with specific disabilities, you know, like I've, speaking from Mr. Price's point of view like we have so many amazing employees and staff that we work with every day who have come directly through NLN, who have come through As I Am, who have come through Chime.

Now we're about to onboard so many different candidates that we have found through the, the jobs fair that we did with Employers for Change. So an open conversation. An open line of communication between the company and those organizations is really helpful. In fact, just today, I was at a meeting that we have with As I Am every month, and it's just about different businesses that have really long-standing and healthy relationships with As I Am, but it's a safe space where we can all come together and go, I'm having this issue.

How do we deal with this? And I think just the more people that do it, the more open the conversation's going to be and the less stigmatized the conversation's going to be because it's scary and I think if you change as a person with a disability or maybe you're an able-bodied person but you're an employee of a company who doesn't hire anyone with a disability and you're getting really frustrated and really wound up about this because maybe your family member has a disability and you can see them struggling so much with it and with their employment journey.

If you can manage to change the narrative in your head to one of God, that's like, that's really sad that they are so scared, like, they're just scared that you have to change the narrative in your hair in your head to going, how can I help this person, even if the person might not know it yet, but they are scared, how can I help them get more educated with it?

So, I think if the organization work with the big companies that they work for, if that makes sense. So, like, if say, you know, you guys employers for change are working with Mr price and other organizations. Put things out on social media. We're in like the online age now. So if someone goes, Oh, geez, Mr. Price are hiring XYZ from Employers for Change, it must be working out for them. I'm going to reach out to, to Bobby or someone else from Mr. Price and go, how did you find this experience? Um, you know, that's how I came into the role that I'm in at the moment. How do we do this? And also, can we do it with you?

So I think that's, that's a really good way of doing it, partnering with the businesses that you're already working with and putting things out there, out in the open. 

Speaker 1 (Mo)

So how can listeners really support the effort to challenge misconceptions and promote the inclusion of persons with disabilities in the workplace?

Speaker 2 (Bobbie)

I think something else that could be done by these organizations is host open days, uh, more open sessions online or in person where it's just literally an information session of here's some misconceptions about autism, here's some misconceptions about hearing loss. Here's some misconceptions about wheelchair users.

Um, and just break the barriers down, break down the stigmas. This podcast is in an effort to do that as well, but maybe it would be great to see some organizations do it as well that are specific to the disability that they deal with. Again, you can look it up online, you can attend online anonymously if you really want to, um, and no one's going to know that you're there, um, and you can get all the, the skills from that.

Um, yeah. So I think that's something really powerful. The listeners, again, just be brave. If you have a disability and you're, you know, still not talking about it and you're not comfortable to talk about it, absolutely do not rush it. It's your own journey. And I know from personal experience, how hard it was to come out of that.

Um, and oftentimes, unfortunately, it does take something bad to happen for you to actually be forced almost out of, uh, out of your silence. That's what happened to me anyway. But it's just about being brave. It's just about developing your own thick skin. Um, if you're listening to this on social media, you can maybe share it with your own network.

If you've picked up any interesting, uh, Topics from this podcast or any bits of information that you would like to hear more on. Maybe you could do some research. Maybe you could say it to someone that works in your own HR department. Are we hiring with people, people with disabilities? You know, ask the questions that no one wants to say no to because then you're putting them in a position.

Oh God, actually, we're not or yeah, we are, but we could be doing a lot more on us. If you work in a big organization. You're probably already hiring people with disabilities, but do they feel comfortable enough to come out and talk about it? So just spread the word and of course, if you ever want to ask any questions to me specifically you can get in touch Um, and obviously employers for change are an amazing resource there as well.

Speaker 1 (Mo)

So, um, what would be your final message to employers?

Speaker 2 (Bobbie)

 Don't be afraid to ask the questions that you are asking over and over again in your head. Because everyone knows that there are, as human beings, we always have that narrative that goes on in our heads. I wonder if this, or does that mean this, it's okay to ask the questions.

Now, there is a right and there is a wrong way to ask those questions. You know, don't be rude about it, but it's never a bad idea to ask those questions. the questions. Um, you will never come across the wrong way if you just put yourself out there and you ask from the heart if you're nervous about asking a question.

Um, so take the chance, take the risk more often than not, it's going to pay off. And if you find yourself in a situation where it doesn't pay off, at least you have learned something because one thing about this is dealing in the DNI space, you are always going to learn something in every situation. You put yourself in and it's never too late to start and you're never going to ask the wrong question.

So just take the chance and believe in your business as well that you're, you're more than capable of, uh, of dealing with it. Something I've learned as well as about human beings is that we are capable of more than we will ever know. And we're stronger than we give ourselves credit for. So take that into your business as well.

Outro

The Employers for Change podcast is a program of the Open Doors Initiative. Funded by the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration, and Youth. To stay informed, you can subscribe to the Open Doors podcast and follow Employers for Change on all social channels. My name is Mohamed Sahid Camara and until next time, bye-bye.